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Just one of those no shit moments of, I said it first! :


 Just over 6 thousand years ago, in Caucasus region of western Azerbaijan near de border of Georgia, not far from tiblisi, 3 young children, were buried in the Mentesh Tepe, in Pits, in the shulaveri-shomu culture, sideways in a contracted position, (I figure this after reading paper ....Lyonnet_etal2015QI.pdf).

* Lyonnet  et al - Mentesh Tepe, an early settlement of the Shomu-Shulaveri Culture in Azerbaijan



  B . Just over 5 thousand years ago, In Iberia region of south Portugal, near the border of Spain, no far from Lisbon, 3 young Children were buried in Perdigoes site, in Pits, in the pre culture milieu of the bell beakers culture, sideways in a contracted position (I figure this after reading paper A. silva et al)


A silva et al -Late Neolithic Pit Burials from perdigões enclosure (Portugal): Preliminary results...



Of the latter 3 children in Portugal, found in Pit7, one was Mtdna H , meaning is mom was most likely a local girl  since those Haplogroup H girls had been in Iberia for very long time, but… wait for it, wait for it… the second and third DNA were Mtdna U4 and U5. - U4 and U5 are from the southern Russia (Siberia) where actually and funny enough the oldest mutations of R1b (M343) originate something like 16,000 Years ago. We know that, for instance, in Scandinavia where its found in highest percentage in Europe they only show up much later with R1b of bell beaker… see, see. What the hell where they doing in the most southern western part of Europe so early? – They came with the leftovers of the Shulaveri Shomu R1b (M269). Bet you all if and when they figure these boys Y-Dna haplogroup it will be all if not most… R1b!


And also I bet you all that, when (I think Lyonnet sent samples for France for analysis) those 3 children from Mentesh Tepe Dna analysis comes out we will find the same HP U4 and U5… and if any Chr Y-dna comes out it will be R1b, all of them. 


No shit sherlock!


 Nota:Não quero de todo transformar isto num blog de antropologia, que nem é a minha praia pese embora o gosto, mas quero que fique escrito, para a posteriedade.  Quem não se interessar por estes temas ignore e siga em frente, ignorando estes posts. Ainda vou colocar mais uns 2 ou 3 antes de largar o tema. Aliás escrevi em Inglês porque estou a ter hits vindo de fora…. E para que fique escrito e claro o que é cintilante e obvio para mim.




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De Maju a 12.01.2016 às 12:31

U4 and U5 are NOT "steppe lineages", they are actually both found in Epipaleolithic Portugal (Chandler 2005) and maybe also in Taforalt (→ U5 is widespread in all Paleolithic Europe, while U4 is more rare but still found at the Baltic and in Portugal.

The crouched position, not to mention the pits (i.e. holes in the ground, the most basic and common type of burial ever), are mainstrean in Neolithic Europe (but crouched burials are also found in Magdalenian and Epi-Magdalenian contexts). So the only thing in common seems to be that three children were buried in both sites.

Now, please, tell me: is there any other connection such as similar concept for the site (Perdigoes' characteristic curved zig-zag ditch, dolmen burials to the NE)? I'm betting that nope, else you'd mention them. So beyond the, admittedly curious, coincidence that of having three children buried, what other connection there is? None.

Notice please that Georgia is not dominated in any way by Y-DNA R1b (G instead) and that rumors about this haplogroup originating in the Caucasus are unfounded, based only on shallow looks at Armenian raw diversity, but Armenians have many different terminal branches of R1b, some Asian, others European, much as Brazilians have more Y-DNA diversity than Portuguese just because they have very diverse origins, but concluding that Portuguese originated in Brazil out of that would be wrong and a careful look at detailed phylogeny would also show that error. R1b surely originated in West Asia, somewhere between Turkey and Jordan most likely, but this is too deep in time. That original West Asian R1b produced a number of sub-branches of which we are only interested in R1b-S116/P312. This one seems to me originated in South France (see:
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De Olympus Mons a 12.01.2016 às 15:23

Maju, thank you so much for dropping by!

Now… Really? Man, you need to come by Lisbon asap because we need to talk over lunch. 

Let me break it down as I see it, bit by bit.
Ok, u5 is older and we don’t know the sub clade to see if it’s linked to the one moving around with U4… but U4 is different! :

a. U4 is actually only, only, found today in significant amounts (18%) to Chuvash and Bashkirs, which relate to Volga Bolgar's Sabir tribe and amazingly is that few hundreds miles small round blur pocket and complete off context pocket of R1b outside Europe, just south of the Urals east of Moscow, north of Kazakhstan,… and you think there is no relation?! … so - outside Europe the only geographic statistic significant pocket of maternal mtdna U4 is exactly in the same spot of the original old clade r1b (M343) and they show up together so early in the peninsula and you think there is no relation? Come on Maju!

b. Why is it so “early”? – because We know from, for instance malmstron et al ( , that BALTIC and Scandinavian HAD none mtdna U4 or U5 by 5000 years before present… but, hey they got it buck loads by now and brought to them by Bell beaker from Lisbon! (I know I am being mean). And hey, that same U4 is showing up in Alentejo well over 5000 year ago like I showed …and we all know for a while that… “During the NEOLITHIC PERIOD U4 STANDS OUT BY ITS ABSENCE FROM THE HUNDREDS OF SAMPLES tested to date, except for one Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic sample (c. 3250 BCE) from CATALONIA and one from PORTUGAL (3000 BCE). Along with Cantabria, Catalonia and Portugal also happen to be the regions of Iberia where U4 is the most common today” – No shit why do you think that is!

c. So, Luis… I stand that there is a strong case for the geographical milieu of U4 (and U5) in the Caucasus and north to the ukraine/russia steppes and that the upsurge of Mtdna U4 (if not U5 because we don’t know the subclade) in Iberia peninsula by 5,000 years is indicative of, like r1b, a fast moving to cluster and aggregate and reunite in iberia by a little later of 6000 year ago. If not U5 then at leat Mtdna U4 came with R1b to South spain and Portugal.

Now I will move to your point 2… ;-) ok?
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De Maju a 12.01.2016 às 17:46

U4 is found at low frequencies through all Europe (→ and Portugal is relatively high within the Iberian Peninsula. Not just that, we know it existed at those or higher frequencies in the Epipaleolithic... and now we know it was also present in the Neolithic. U4 was also found in the Chalcolithic (Afonso 2010) and is found today. Always at low frequencies but always present. From what you say you seem to be conscious of this continuity, so why do you lean to an opposite conclusion then? Epipaleolithic → Neolithic → Chalcolithic → present, all them with low but detectable frequencies of U4, suggesting continuity. My impression is that there's an U4 branch specific of Portugal or West Iberia that is probably Paleolithic but that it has not been properly researched. It's too old not to have some distinctive markers.

"BALTIC and Scandinavian HAD none mtdna U4 or U5 by 5000 years before present"

· Stora Forvar (Sweden): 1/2 (Skoglund 2013)
· Bad Dürrenberg (North Germany): 1/1 (Bramanti 2009)
· Kunda culture (Lithuania): 1/2 (Bramanti 2009)
· YOO (Karelia): 2/7 (Der Sarkissian 2011/13)
· Popova (North Russia): 2/2 (Der Sarkissian 2011/13)

All them are from well before 5000 years ago. You probably have the Gotland Pitted Ware in mind but these are all several millennia older, from times when Neolithic in Europe was just arriving to the Aegean or not even that yet.

So U4 was very dense over there but it was also present in Portugal and quite possibly NW Africa (Taforalt): the expansion of U4 is at least Epipaleolithic, maybe late UP, just as the one of U5 with which it shows a strong correlation.

"During the NEOLITHIC PERIOD U4 STANDS OUT BY ITS ABSENCE FROM THE HUNDREDS OF SAMPLES tested to date, except for one Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic sample (c. 3250 BCE) from CATALONIA and one from PORTUGAL (3000 BCE)"...

The first that come to mind are Pitted Ware samples from Götland, which are c. 3500 BCE and sub-neolithic of even fisher-farmer maybe (they had pigs at the very least, maybe also some cereals). There is also U4 in Starcevo culture (Széncsényi-Nági 2014), Gurgy (Burgundy, Rivollat 2015), Granollers (Catalonia, San Pietro 2007) and the one you mention at Perdigoes.

While I hate to recommend this site (I have serious ethic conflicts with the owner), you may want to bookmark it for further reference because, even if not 100% reliable (she manipulates some data sometimes), it's still good for quick reference:

At the very least is much more up to date than what you copied from Eupedia.



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